Do you think this is a Fakie 900? I think this is figure skating…

Posted: June 21, 2009 in Jumps

For a long time now, I’ve been saying that Xtreme Ice Skaters must try to bring their knees up to their hips for it to be a valid jump. Do I do this all the time in my own jumps? No, of course not, but I try very hard to. Anyway, why is this knee thing an issue? It is an issue because Xtreme Ice Skating is supposed to look XTREME, not like figure skating (not that there’s anything wrong with figure skating).

I look at this supposedly “Fakie 900”, and all I see is figure skating. Since when are you supposed to cross your legs in Xtreme Ice Skating Fakie Jumps? It is apparent that the person who performed this jump is predominantly a figure skater.
What do you think?

  1. Anonymous says:

    stop bashing people cause they do things different from you.

    • Dan says:

      Thank you for your comment. So you think doing things different is okay? Pesonally, I agree, but it’s not a bash. It’s just a respectful opinion.

  2. ivan says:

    well, his stance is a figure skater’s… and yet you got it right Dan. its harder to spin with knee up to the hip.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Thank you for understanding. With the knees up to the hip, the weight displacement is much different, especially in my skates (Xtreme ice-skates). My skates are much heavier than hockey skates because my skates are entirely leather. But anyway, even with hockey skates, the knees up to the hip is much harder because your balance forced forward, rather than it being directly underneath you like in figure skating.

      I sort of wished the guy would do the jump with his knees up to his hip and without crossing his legs. Perhaps we can all learn from him.

  3. Paul says:

    In xtreme ice skating i would define a fakie 900 as travelling backwards to begin with then jumping, tucking the knees up and then performing two and a half rotations before landing travelling forwards! Simple haha!

    However this is just my opinion based on how i perform jumps! I see a lot of the xtreme skaters at my rink performing various jumps without tucking legs up particularly fakie 360s but that is there own style i just prefer the tucked leg look in a jump…similar to how they are performed in roller blading.

  4. HockeySk8er says:

    Come on Dan, why does this matter to you exactly? Just because Alex can do something you can’t? Can you see what your doing here; your putting limitations on a sport that isn’t supposed to have limitations. Alex Hamel was the first to land a fakie 900 (fakie 900 is defined as taking off backwards and rotating 900 degrees and is nothing to do with your position in the air)
    Its not supposed to look like anything, thats the point, its everyones one style, which is what the entire sport is about. Alex, the person who landed this jump WAS a figure skater, I say was, as in past tense. What he does now is far better in my personal opinion then what Dan is doing, he is much more innovative and has a real thing going for him, maybe you could learn something from him.
    To be honest I think most of the people who were into “xtreme / freestyle skating / whatever people call it, have moved on. We don’t really care about what you have to say about our moves etc, if it doesn’t meet your personal standard then so what, I would love to see you land a fakie 900 with the knees up, can you even 720 yet Dan?
    I challenge you to leave this comment up, its not insulting or offensive, its my personal opinion which I have a right to, but thats not really like you to leave anything that might criticize xtreme skating / you up.
    oh, and Mr Wilde says hi πŸ˜‰

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Please send my warmest regards to Mr Wilde, and that I give him a huge New York “How Ya doin’!. I’m sure he misses my father and I antics of “British vs. American”. He’ll know what I mean πŸ˜‰

      Alright, down to the meat of this topic. There are certain rules I put forth for the sport so that the sport maintains its’ integrity. They are not limitations. They are actually enhancements. The “wow-factor”, as commonly referred to in extreme sports marketing, is one which displays awesome power and “grunge-extreme sports look” with the met expectations of viewers. If that expectation isn’t met, the sport will fall a part. And to show you what I mean, look at the reaction of skateboarders to this other skateboarder who put out this video:

      The last thing I want is Xtreme Ice Skaters to start looking like that lol. I think you’re taking this whole “limitations” thing to the extreme, or should I say, in the opposite direction lol.

      The Pursuit of Happiness is the Pursuit of Xtreme.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      You criticize having rules and control over the sport, yet Tony Hawk’s first advice in his video about businesses, is to “have complete control”.

      You don’t believe me? He says it in this short video:

      Are you going to actually say that Tony Hawk is a croc? Come on now.. gimme a break.

  5. Paul says:

    i do agree with a 900 being a 900 regardless of leg position etc, leg positions etc determine the names of different jumps exactly like in roller blading…method airs etc but if it simply a frontside 900 then i guess technically leg position doesnt matter too much. Straight-ish legs helps to increase spin speed too allowing this trick to actually be possible haha!:)

  6. Anonymouse says:

    LOL Dan, your “challenging” a video that is 2 years old, bit late eh? oh well guess you must be bored.

  7. Paul says:

    i wouldnt say he is challenging it, more just questioning whether or not he feels it is what an aggressive inliner would call a frontside 900 or is it more of a figure skate style jump, both are still a 900 though!!

  8. Hockeysk8er says:

    In the email he sent me on youtube he stated “you’re video is being challenged” hahaha

  9. Paul says:

    I can appreciate both sides of this argument in some ways but i do however agree with Dan on the tucking of legs to make it more “xtreme”. I’ve just had a quick read back and i cant find anywhere where Dan states he was challenging it!

    Anyway the only video of an “xtreme” skater doing a 900 i can find on youtube is some guy with sorta bushy hair (i’m not taking the mick just describing so you know which video i mean) and to be honest from what i can see in the video he does seem to tuck his legs maybe not right up to the hip but they are far from straight.

    Is there a direct link to the video your all referring to incase i’ve seen another haha??

    • Dan Perceval says:

      The rules are for Xtreme Ice Skating spinning jumps, the knees must be up to the hip. I’m setting up the sport for the future, for when competitions come about. During competition, an Xtreme Ice Skater will lose a certain amount of points for having a certain amount angle lost of the knees not being at the hip level. Also, I’m currently thinking about how many points will be lost for a cheated rotation, a crappy landing, and so forth.

  10. Hockeysk8er says:

    Dan emailed me personally on youtube saying that he was challenging it.

    And yes that is the video paul. Though its not me, its a canadian skater who came to visit me in Nottingham, UK

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Actually, I said “your video is being challenged”. And I said that for one reason: to bring you over to this blog so you can state your case and have a voice in the sport.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      And the “challenge” meant that I was challenging the LEGITIMACY of the jump. Your video is a false statement of the “Fakie 900” jump. Simply put; no one has ever performed this jump and proven it.

      Why don’t you have your friend “Alex” do the jump that’s in the sport — meaning, according to the rules. If he or anyone else can’t or won’t, than no one has ever performed this jump and proven it, YET.

  11. Paul says:

    hmm right ok! It is the video i had seen myself, his legs definately arent straight but arent full tucked either.

    Like Dan says i suppose in a competition environment they would need to be tucked more. However i would also say that even if your being very particular about the technique, tuck etc its still a fakie 900. If you were judging it in an “xtreme” skating sort of way maybe you could say its sketchy in the air??? Take off and landing are good though!

    Does seem to have a figure skating sort of lead into it but i dont really think this trick would be possible any other way!! How else could you develop so much momentum for the rotation??

    • Dan Perceval says:

      You can develop a great amount of spin by thrusting on the take-off, throwing arms out, whipping your head, and pulling in. I can do all of these, but it throws me into a wild spin. Once I can get control of my spin and feel really comfortable in the air, than doing high rotations in the air will become much easier.

      Besides, if you’re a company that wants to sell products that’s marketed to a thrill seeker and the sport starts looking like figure skating, the potential company will lose interest in investment, sponsorship, or etc..

  12. Hockeysk8er says:

    I don’t want a voice in the “sport” people just don’t understand, I can do this whether its an official sport or not. I don’t do it to look good or get attention, I do it for me, because I enjoy the release from reality if you will.
    I couldn’t care less if I do a jump and it doesn’t meet your approval, because I’m not performing for you am I? Likewise why do I care if my arm is 0.082095 degrees off, it doesn’t matter.
    I really don’t see what the argument is here, you think his knees aren’t tucked up enough? So what? They certainly are not straight like he normally jumps in figure skating etc.

    Until you land a perfect fakie 900 with knees up etc, I have to say its not really your place to state what looks good and bad, also are you actually going to do a just skating video?

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Thanks. It IS my place because I am the founder of the sport. The argument is once again, the “wow-factor”. And jumping with the knees under the hip looks crappy and elegant, to put it simply.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      A skating video? Am I going to do one? Yes, but not for a while. Xtreme Ice Skaters want tutorials right now, and I will provide for their request πŸ™‚

      • Hockeysk8er says:

        But you cannot land that trick Dan, and to be honest it was Xtreme Ice Skating was already there, just not called that, before you it was freestyle skating and always has been.
        You cannot criticize something just because you cannot do it, thats my point. And I am still under the impression that you cannot skate properly in a straight line, try playing hockey just for a couple of months and it will improve your skating ten-fold. I ended up doing that because I was sick of the lack of tolerance my rink has for any freestyle of any description. But I am glad of this, my skating improved so much in a very short space of time (this was 2 years ago now).
        I will not have any respect for someone who criticizes possibly the biggest rotation ever landed in hockey skates by someone who can barely skate forwards.

      • Dan Perceval says:

        Xtreme Ice Skating was created when I created the sport. Freestyle is NOT Xtreme Ice Skating. Freestyle has a different movement, target market, and culture and appeals to a different market base. The personality of freestylers are not the same as Xtreme Ice Skaters. Freestyle is also NOT a sport. There’s no organization, business, community, and recognition of such movement. Freestyle has no brand. Xtreme Ice Skating has all of such.

        A sport is not defined by doing tricks in “hockey skates”. The skates have nothing to do with. Someone wearing figure skates could be an Xtreme Ice Skater, because they are thrill seekers, leaders, performers, individualists, and creators – – all of which conform to the style, movement and culture of Xtreme Ice Skating. We look like thriller seekers on the ice. Freestyle does NOT look Xtreme.

        I am glad you took up hockey. You’re a hockey player and a freestyler. Are you Xtreme? I hope so.

      • Dan Perceval says:

        I am sorry to hear that your rink has no tolerance for other sports other than figure skating and hockey. I think this issue needs to be addressed, both locally and internationally. Personally, I am working on solving this problem. Maybe not are your rink — but in totality of the problem, yes. This is what one does when they are the founder of a sport. They pursue solutions for their constituency. Perhaps you can help (even in lack of respect). If you help me, you will help yourself because you will potentially be able to skate as you wish.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      By the way, how come your friends who were in some of your Xtreme Ice Skating videos are not here debating this? They seemed to be spot-on when it came to the hip thing. I think they are secretly in disagreement with you because they are thrill seekers and you appear not.

    • Jedifarce says:

      This is the part of Dan that ferments my disgust for him. He’s so delusional, he actually believes people that have a greater talent than himself are subject to his whims.

  13. Hockeysk8er says:

    Because my friends stopped skating, and went into other hobbies, martial arts etc.
    And that seriously made me laugh, the thrillseekers bit, you have absolutely NO idea as to what I do hahaha

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Perhaps you should talk about what you do. I am sure Xtreme Ice Skaters here would be interested. This blog is a place to make friends, as well as debate pressing issues. It’s all soup. Enjoy.

  14. Hockeysk8er says:

    “Freestyle has a different movement, target market, and culture and appeals to a different market base. The personality of freestylers are not the same as Xtreme Ice Skaters. Freestyle is also NOT a sport. There’s no organization, business, community, and recognition of such movement. Freestyle has no brand. Xtreme Ice Skating has all of such.”

    No, this is where you are wrong, freestyle appeals to exactly the same people, and there is a freestyle community and always has been groups of people meet up at rinks across the world every week, its just not an online thing. Thats where your going wrong, your trying to make a business out of it, to make money. People like tony hawk don’t make money from the sport in the same way your trying to make money from this. I’m hating myself there for comparing you to him, but oh well.

    In both freestyle and xtreme there are supposed to be no limits on what it looks like etc, freestyle was started by people who took aggressive inlining on ice, the exactly same look you are trying to achieve.

    It was probably a mistake emailing me, because you know what my views are, I’m tempted to go back and rename all my videos to freestyle, even though essentially its the same thing.

    I can honestly say I confident I am more of a thrill seeker then you, you skate around on a rink doing tricks (which I have nothing against because I do the same thing), I free climb buildings, abseil into derelict nuclear bunkers etc. Good luck with the sport, but no-one who can skate will ever conform to what you want, because they will be put off by your personality, because you constantly try to draw attention to yourself as the founder people just find you a bit big headed, as I’ve seen in other youtube comments, if your going to claim to be the founder you best make sure your the best at it.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Tony Hawk is not the best at skateboarding. He doesn’t have to be. He just has to be good enough. Creating a sport has a lot less to do with skating than it does with organization, business, and perseverance.

      I disagree with you about freestyle appealing to the same people as Xtreme.

      Freestyle: creators, performers, individualists
      Lacks: wow-factor

      Xtreme: Thriller seekers, leaders, performers, individualists.

  15. Hockeysk8er says:

    Click my username if your interested in anything I do by the way.

    I’m off, and I cannot be bothered to argue anymore. Good luck with the sport, you’ll need it.

  16. Hockeysk8er says:

    However, I don’t want to leave on a bad note, so I will be nice for once.

    What your doing in itself is great, your running a business which I know is a lot of work, you obviously love what you do, your drawing lots of attention towards “xtreme ice skating” and you’ve had good media reports.

    I myself am trying to do much the same thing with my photography, I have had lots of media attention, and I am trying to make a living, and thus far your are probably doing better then I am as far as running a business.

    Just appreciate what other skaters are capable of and they will like you.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Thank you for your comments. I do appreciate other people’s abilities as well as your own (and Alex too). This whole hip thing is not an affront to you or your friend Alex. I am simply making business decisions in the most practical sense. Every single decision I make is based off of my business model. It is not an egotistical thing. It is not a self acquisition of power. I am merely trying to protect my sport, especially after spending 4 years and 50 thousand dollars (I could of put a down payment on a house by now).

      By the way, I never told the general public this, but when I first started the sport in 2005, I took pictures of all my movements and laid them out on my dining room table lol. I sorted the tricks according to skill level. And at that time, I had no idea of this whole “freestyle” movement that was going on in the UK and in other areas. For those years leading up to the final decision to develop the sport — which was the last two months of college (you guys call it university), I had developed my own style of skating with my older brother (when he used to skate). We used to both be aggressive inline skaters and bmx bikers. And here, at our local rinks, no one had skated like us, not even “freestyle”. However, I remember there was this one guy, and he was the only one, who hanged out in the corner all of the time and did this slalom-type skating. At the time, I thought he was dancing around like a crazy person, but I didn’t know it was “freestyle”. Secretly we we made fun of the guy (I was about 16 at the time), but my brother and I still tried to make friends with the guy anyway. So leading up to the sport now: back in 2005 when I first went online with my website, I started to notice all of these freestyle videos. And I remember saying to myself, “this is a great way to start pulling people into my sport, but I don’t know if they’re going to like my style of skating.”

      So in 2006, when I started getting a lot of press coverage, a lot of skaters on youtube were coming out with this whole hate thing… that I’m not the founder of this Xtreme Ice Skating sport. I didn’t want to put a deep divide between Xtreme Ice Skating and freestyle because I knew I would be alienating a potential target-market. By the way, figure skaters and hockey skaters are another potential target market. Low and behold, my first followers were freestyler’s. I started posting their videos on my website because they were using my sport name — because that’s what you do in business — you scrap for anything, especially in the start-up phase of a business. And ever since then, people still confuse Xtreme Ice Skating and Freestyle. Some people even think they’re the same. Personally, I want to be as far away from freestyle movement as possible. I don’t like “free-flowing movement” (except for the Drunken’ Sailor). But I do like powerful and choppy movements. I just want to beat the ever-living crap out of the ice, whether it looks good or bad. But because of business, I had to clean everything up as well as create an actual discipline. Therefore, I started creating rules for the sport. And these rules were to serve two purposes: The first is to make the sport look cool, which is why I have skaters put their arms at certain angles and other things, and two, it’s because the sport needed a discipline (something concrete where everyone acted similar). Like in figure skating, an Axel is one and a half rotations in the air with a front outside edge take-off and backwards outside edge landing on the other opposite foot. So I started with these rules and there was a huge backlash. But I continued anyway and still do because it is the only way. I study figure skating and other successful sports (and pretty much anything I can get my hands on), and try to understand WHY something has worked. So therefore, I make decisions based on the best possible outcome in any possible scenario. I hope you understand now. As one of my business advisers always says: “Dan… you’re doing probably the hardest thing you could ever do in business”. And my response is always, “Ahhhh… Sh!!!!!”.

      • Jedifarce says:

        Frankly, I’m puzzled. You pretend as though you’ve got a vast organization of followers (as you put it, personally I prefer the term mindless drones), but the last time I checked your membership site, you’ve got a grand total of 4 members that have signed up.

        How influential can you possibly believe yourself to be? You consider this a model for business success?

      • Dan Perceval says:

        Jedifarce, my followers would be those who are subscribed to me on youtube, those who put up Xtreme Ice Skating videos, and those who regularly email me or follow the sport.

        I do not have a lot of Members, but that is because there are things in the business that need to be moved forward, to be not explicit. It is my job to find that “something”. Now whether my sport takes off or not is the ultimate question. If it does, than it will be a huge success. If it doesn’t, than I will walk away with something that no one can take away from me, and that is knowledge. Creating this sport is the best college education I ever had (after having spent 6 years in college).

  17. Hockeysk8er says:

    PS, if your ever in the UK and in need of a decent photographer, give me a shout :p

  18. X_observer says:

    It seems to me that if everyone has these thoughts on what is and what isnt Xtreme, that you provide the comments and then collectively recommend what it should be. I must disagree , I think Dan has been been fairly courteous in his comments, and I dont think he bashes anyone.

    Why cant some of these comments just focus on the tricks itself and why something is or isnt extreme and take some of the personal attacks out of it.

    I would offer comment, but honestly, I don’t believe I would be qualified, Im kind of learning as I go like everyone else did, but it sure would be great to have a guide to go by.

  19. X_observer says:

    Got an idea.

    Why don’t we have people post Fakie 900s , then try and take a vote through this blog of which one is the best. Then you can use the results to determine requirements for an F900.

    Set up a date for the video post, date for final blogs and post the results.

    Whos with me! (Of course I stink so Im sure you wont be using mine!) LOL, but Ill try.

  20. Paul says:

    haha i could post my fakie 360 if i film it when i go skating tonight but i’m a long way from a fakie 900 yet!! I’m still working on the frontside 540 too but my concentrations have been on the fakie 360 recently and just generally working my edges so help me improve!

  21. Paul says:

    so basically last night i wasnt having a good skating night and my jumps were all over the place at first for some reason. Later in the night i was much much better and landed my fakie 360 better than ever before but didnt film it due to my earlier terrible skating haha!

    Next skate session is thursday night so fingers crossed i’ll sort it then! I hope so anyway because i’m going on holiday saturday!!

  22. alex says:

    so much talking, so little skating.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Welcome to my Xtreme Ice Skating community blog Alex. I see you’ve finally got the guts to come over and visit. Now you need need to take off those sequins and show us what you got, and I don’t mean manly figure skating πŸ™‚

    • Paul says:

      Quite possibly the most pointless comment ever!

      I apologise for the amount of times I say I hope to get things filmed and don’t but its not really my fault since I’m not the one doing the filming I’m the one being filmed!!

      Anyway I skate because I enjoy it, I strive to constantly better myself however I don’t skate to be the best because that way I would never be happy! So drop all the macho competitiveness its not welcome on this forum!

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Paul is telling you to quit it, Alex. And when I say “show us what you got”, I mean: make some Xtreme Ice Skating videos. This blog is all about Xtreme Ice Skating so enjoy the sport as everyone else on here does.

  23. alex says:

    Dan, I invite you to show up at one of the shows of our group. Let’s do a battle. Let’s let a crowd decide by acclamation.

    I’d also be willing to go do the same at your place if you have an event where you can bring a crowd.

    And it would also be fun to meet.

    • Dan Perceval says:

      Alex, with all do respect, I am going to hit you with a one-two punch here. The first time you ever contacted me, you sent me an email that said something like this, “If you think you’re good, check out what we’re doing”. I was immediately turned off by that. Then you started making nasty comments about me on some youtube videos, especially saying that “dan shouldn’t make money off of what he does… and he’s just good at marketing”. YOU MAKE MONEY off of what you do, and also proclaim a business to something new. That’s extremely hypocritical. Why should I do business with somebody who knocks me down, AND, at the same time, is in practically the same line of work. We’re both business people who are professional ice-skaters. How many people are there in the world who are also professional ice-skaters, business people, and who are proclaiming something new? You could probably count them on one hand. Gimme a break dude.

      My word of advice to you: From now on, hold your tongue, and be as professional as humanly possible.

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